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Location: The Big Issues
Discussion: Taboos, Expectations
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 monkeymind |
Taboos, Expectations
Feb 1 2008, 5:48 PM EST I find it hard to debate these points when agreeing so fully. I'll just list some examples: "But Ajahn Chah smoked cigarettes" - I've always wondered why people would think awakening could me measured in units of "cigarettes per day". "When you say you are awakened, you are in real trouble, because nobody wants you to be" - one of Ajahn Chahs students. Nanavira Thera writing up his stream-entry experience in pali and hiding it in a letter "to be opened in the event of my death". Finding out about Nanavira was quite an eye-opener for me, and encouraged me to keep looking for more. Cheers, Florian 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
 danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 2 2008, 3:56 AM EST Yep, the projections, confused expectations and very surprising reactions come fast and thick if one talks about these things in most circles, which is preposterous, if you ask me, as clearly this is not the tradition the Buddha wanted, who himself was very direct about things, as were many of his students and plenty since him. There are more with insight out there than let on, and if you snoop around you will find many overt and subtle hints and indications. The Dharma Overground is here to try to provide something useful for those trying to help normalize and shine much needed clarity, balance and light on issues that have been in the dark for way too long: let us know what you might like to see here to help with this process, and we'll see what we can do. Glad to have you here. -Daniel 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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monkeymind |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 2 2008, 7:24 AM EST Suggestions: 1. Some FAQ wiki pages on specific chapters of good Dhamma books? You encourage people to go and do the work, so questions inevitably come up. 2. Cross-Reference wiki pages for the maps, linking into all the other traditions there are. I get the impression that you put a lot of research effort into writing up the maps, and it would be interesting (from a more academic angle) to explire this. 3. Some pages with individual experiences - this is somewhat voyeuristic, and will lead to a lot of projection, so we should discuss this further. My main interest here is that I thought I recognized some of the imagery you used in a podcast on Buddhist Geeks. Cheers, Florian 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 2 2008, 3:40 PM EST Good, practical requests. The quick place for my take on things would be my website: www.interactivebuddha.com, though there are lots of others: it has book lists, some experiences, my book, and lots of other links and the like. This site is just getting up and running, and shortly will have the infrastructure to contain all of those sorts of things. I'll ask some other members of the DU and DO to chime in and see what they say. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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monkeymind |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 3 2008, 3:07 PM EST Yes, your site has a lot of that already, and I can't thank you enough for that, by the way. If DO would expand on that, become more international (I'm in Europe), add translations into other languages, it would be useful to a wider range of people. Do you find this valuable? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 3 2008, 3:11 PM EST It is interesting to note that much of what you are interested in is happening at the Dharma Underground: a Grand Map Project, an Experiences page, a Techniques section, reviews of Teachers, reviews of Retreat Centers and the like. That said, the problem is that much of the work there involves people who are not necessarily out of the closet about what they know and can do, and may of those pages contain content which basically would out their authors, some of whom don't want to be out, which is why it is able to happen there in a way that it doesn't happen elsewhere. What specifically is your deeper interest in these things? Tell us a bit about yourself. I noticed your profile is a bit slender. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 3 2008, 3:13 PM EST True about the languages and international aspect. Hopefully this will grow with time. One of our members is in Croatia. Invite those you know to join in and we'll see what happens. Do you find this valuable? |
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monkeymind |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 3 2008, 6:50 PM EST "What specifically is your deeper interest in these things? Tell us a bit about yourself. I noticed your profile is a bit slender."Profile's fixed, now. Do you find this valuable? |
 nathan28 |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 4 2008, 5:01 PM EST It is interesting--my teacher has on a few occasions mentioned "enlightenment" and "awakening", but doesn't discuss them much besides saying that as long as there's a sense of ego the breath will be "control[led]". I think (and that's the only evidence) that he focuses on technique to avoid any theoretical discussions that might bring up disbelief--and that's frustrating in and of itself, since shared theory is how we talk about things. Do you find this valuable? |
 mysteryofexistence |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 5 2008, 1:33 AM EST Hi, I am exited to join dharma overground to see what I can receive and contribute. I am pretty much of a novice to these topics. Can anyone give me a pointer to background articles/info? I guess the points on the front page does not quite match my own experience, which is that there is plenty of easily accessible info out there on maps and practices at different levels, described in very direct and clear language, with few if any taboos. And also the traditional guidelines for finding teachers, which seems to work well. (Someone trained and authorized in a tradition, kindhearted, psychologically healthy in a conventional sense, and so on.) My experience is mostly with Genpo Roshi and the Big Mind process, Adyashanti, Byron Katie, and a local teacher, Joel Morwood (www.centerforsacredsciences.org). 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 5 2008, 9:33 PM EST I appreciate your counterpoint, and the mention of more non-dual, immediate traditions and emphases. One way to look at this may be as follows: the traditions that a good number of the Dharma Underground practitioners come from significantly more developmental traditions, those that emphasize stages, states, various attainments, and the like. These can have a very different feel from more "immediate" traditions, such as Dzogchen, some of the Vedantists, many Zen sects, and others, that don't tend to emphasize maps, goals, hard criteria for attainments, concentration states, stages of enlightenment, and that sort of thing. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 5 2008, 10:27 PM EST Also, much of the progressive, goal-oriented world suffers from a number of cultural maladies, including but not limited to: terribly misleading or simply missing maps of meditation, an emphasis on psychology rather than more fundamental insights, a pervasive culture of secrecy about attainments of teachers, a strong strain among followers who believe that enlightenment and the like is either impossible or believe it to involve absurd ideals of human perfection and/or limitation. In the face of all that, some place like this is useful. It must be admitted that by having almost no maps, no firm criteria for attainments, no emphasis on the progressive aspects of the path, certain more non-dual traditions do dodge some of these issues. That said, when the maps and open culture around attainments functions at its best, it fills in a lot of gaps and explains a lot that those traditions without those features often miss. 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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mysteryofexistence |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 5 2008, 10:40 PM EST Hi Daniel, and thank you for your generous, thoughtful and helpful replies. It helps me see it more in perspective. I also have to say I looked for the "delete" button after posting what I did, as I could see it coming from a quite fixed view and some blind arrogance as well... (I got to explore it here: http://www.absentofi.org/2008/02/inquiry-they-shouldnt-present-it-as-so-difficult) Although I am mostly familiar with the more immediate path, I am also very interested in the maps you refer to, so hope to learn more about it here. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
 woman_alone |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 25 2008, 3:42 PM EST "the problem is that much of the work there involves people who are not necessarily out of the closet about what they know and can do, and may of those pages contain content which basically would out their authors, some of whom don't want to be out, which is why it is able to happen there in a way that it doesn't happen elsewhere. "Hi Daniel, Can I ask, what's the concern with being out? Is it as simple as too much unwanted attention? I believe that part of the mythologizing of the process gives people the excuse for not really striving to attain. I came to love the messages in Theravada because it emphatically stated attainment was possible. It wasn't until I encountered this group that I realized that it was possible even outside the permanent walls of a Wat/monastery. And if "lay" practitioners have attained, I can see that it would pose an enormous threat to those who do not want it to be attainable. It might as well be tattoo of the word failure on their practices and perception. But for all that, I believet that such a project could do so much for those, like me, who strive towards this goal with passion and diligence, but with flickering conviction as though in the dark, for lack of knowing how a 'lay' person could achieve this thing. I see in your experiences the opportunity to light a candle in my practice, and I imagine there are many like me who would feel the same. This is why I want to know, what is it about being out that prevents people from sharing such a positive result with the world? (And may you all be thanked for sharing in whatever way you comfortably can.) Thanks. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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danielmingram |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 26 2008, 4:12 AM EST Good questions and thoughts. I am of like mind that people being open and simply stating that the techniques work and worked for them is empowering and helpful, at least I found it so when I was coming up in this stuff. The question of why one would not be "out" about attainments is very complex, and it very much depends on the audience and context. For instance, many groups believe it is not possible, such as many of the staff at some major retreat centers I know, and thus to claim attainments automatically makes you a liar at best and a psychopath at worst. Having been more out than most, I can tell you the projections, bad reaction, anger, jealousy, confusion, doubt, fear, territoriality, and the like fly thick and fast despite honest attempts to keep things practical and down to earth. Furthermore, many of those who are not "out" have real-world situations in which you just can't go around saying, "I am a highly enlightened meditation master with psychic powers who can..." because it just wouldn't make any sense in that context. For instance, I work as a physician in the deep south. I could say all I wanted, and people would just laugh, think I was making a joke, not have any idea what I was talking about, and so it really is a non-issue. However, for those who work in that middle area, professionals around people who might have some idea distorted idea what they were talking about, it can cause real chaos. Imagine being a PhD hard scientist and claiming realization in a setting where your boss might hear it: potentially cause for questioning sanity at best and dismissal at worst. Or go to most Buddhist groups and claim realization and watch the insane, radically idealistic traditional models get applied with all the compassion of a pack of hyenas. Until more realistic models are promoted more widely, being "out" can be a real problem at times, despite the benefits. 7 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
 eevld |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 26 2008, 3:18 PM EST These are extremely important points that Daniel is making and that are raised by this very question. It is something that is not often even thought about too much until one is actually put into this position - either by 'choice' or by circumstances - and gets to learn first hand about the backlash that can be involved. In some cases, the actual tradition does not have the context or the language on the whole - at least in terms of the broad population of followers - to even process what in the world enlightenment or attainment means. One can easily slip under the radar in such circumstances. For example, I was raised in a Christian tradition and utilized modes in particular of practices related to certain aspects of that faith - in particular Catholic contemplative methods - during my time as a seeker. It was difficult - if not almost impossible - to find anyone to relate to in these matters at the time, which was sort of a setback. But I was also left alone and unhindered once all was said and done since matters of awakening are not on the agenda for the vast majority of that particular population. There is another matter in this, and it is whether one is even moved to discuss attainment in the first place. For example, when I do speak of these things, it usually is not within the context of a tradition, though I am able to talk within the range of my understanding utilizing the traditions I studied and practiced - depending upon the background of whomever I'm talking to. But I have to say that it is truly not a choice I am making - the move to discuss simply comes up. Given the very real, notable, and daunting nature of the potential consequences doing so can put one in which Daniel mentions, it is amazing to the logical mind each time the mouth opens or the fingers type. It has nothing, on this end, to do with a preference - it is just happening. I can easily see how the REVERSE would also be true for those who are NOT moved to talk at all. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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woman_alone |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Feb 27 2008, 1:45 AM EST Thanks to both of you for the explanations. I had never even thought of the accusation of insanity, or the loss of credibility that could go with such an accusation. I was aware that people might react with fear/anger/aggression/adoration/etc, none of which seemed such a powerful blocker (annoying, though, to be sure). But, yes, the idea of a loss of credibility could be very devastating. Then the question becomes one of why come out at all? I just want to say for all of you who are participating in this process of sharing your understanding of attainment, whatever your reason for doing so, it's helpful to me. Before encountering such a group of individuals, the idea of attainment was one that I believed possible, but in an academic sort of way. Like I "should" be able to do it, even if I'm not a nun. But there's a difference between believing and knowing. For me it brought a whole new level of dedication to the practice. And for that I'm grateful. So thanks. 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
 SongMt |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Apr 3 2008, 5:41 PM EDT This is the most refreshing perspective I have heard. I have been a first hand eyewitness to seeing someone (my teacher) come out about some of his attainments, very down to earth about them, and some of the resulting reactions from his students. The projections that ensued were outrageous, Daniel does not exaggerate. The initial worship was there. When my teacher tried to readjust and educate the students, the negative backlash was astounding. They had a huge pile of assumptions that went with his practical approach to the esoteric. It is amazing at how constricted we now feel because of that. I hope this is the beginning of a movement where more focus on the practical method is stressed over the dogma and mass perceptive propaganda. Hope it didnt sound bitter, i am truly excited about this site, and the perspective it is growing. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sonamdolma sonamdolma |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Apr 3 2008, 10:19 PM EDT In 25 years in Tibetan Buddhist sanghas, no one - ever once - mentioned anything about their own personal practice, let alone attainments. My model for enlightenment was Milarepa flying. We took bhodisattva vows and believed that everyone would - eventually - become enlightened…but in a future incarnation. Since I started listening to Buddhist Geeks and realized there might be some validity to homegrown teachers, I’ve realized I was sitting in the wrong pew. And, as my outlook softened, the spiritual path got wider and I was able to give up a lot of my mistaken models. Recently my best friend of over 50 years told me that she was enlightened. I snorted in disbelief until I realized she was undoubtedly speaking the truth. In my old model I would have wanted her to walk on water; with a more realistic outlook, I see her as totally compassionate, completely egoless and with boundless energy. Thanks Vince and Daniel. It’s amazing what descriptions and instructions in English can do to speed up attainments. Today, three weeks after starting, I moved into #10, Equanimity. Do you find this valuable? |
 isshoni |
RE: Taboos, Expectations
Apr 5 2008, 9:28 AM EDT Disclaimer: I am mostly ignorant on the subject, both experientially and theoretically, so I am probably overly simplisitc, or just plain wrong: please read me with "buckets" of salt and feel free to trash me! It seems to me that the map issue (leaving esoteric and devotional schools aside) is an expression of two different conceptions of enlightenment, arahatship vs. boddhisattvaship. Bodhisattvaship: it is not suprising that there are no (public) maps to a goal so high that it is very rarely reached; the bodhisattva ecosystem is too scarce. In Magellan's time, rutters were both dearly kept secrets and very sketchy. On the other side we've got "mechanistic" technics that produced thousands of arahants, hence a rich ecosystem of enlightened individuals that enables detailed mapping. A question to Daniel: how would you compare your view on arahatship with Mahadeva's? Do you find this valuable? |
