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Location: The Dharma Battleground
Discussion: Emptier-than-Thou
Keyword tags:
debate
progressive path
stages
states
sudden path
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 monkeymind |
Emptier-than-Thou
Mar 8 2008, 8:00 AM EST Wow! Okay, soapbox please: I've been re-reading Daniels book these days, and for this discussion, I suggest (to those who find the book helpful) to re-read the chapters on "Morality, the First and Last Training", and "A Clear Goal". Let's also resolve to be honest as well as frank (like Michael and Daniel have been so far), and to take the time to let a post mature before sending it. For flame-wars I can easily go to usenet, where I can use a comfy newsreader instead of a web-forum. (climbs off soapbox) So, the reason I suggested the "clear goal" chapter was that the way I understand Daniel he's saying that a good goal is practice-oriented, and practice takes place in the present, because this is what we can be mindful of. And without mindfulness, practice is not possible. And Michael seems to be coming from the other direction, from "no goal, nothing to attain" towards "mindfulness of the present", though I that's what I conjecture from his posts and his website. Now, I'm not suggesting they are saying the same thing when they obviously aren't. But any teaching, be it the Buddha's, Daniel's, Michael's, should be approached with the question "how do I pick this up?" Cheers, Florian 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
 woman_alone |
RE: Emptier-than-Thou
Mar 8 2008, 3:37 PM EST Wow indeed. (Couldn't have said it better, Florian.) It's daunting to find a way to enter this conversation. My opinion is one of belief rather than experience, but I was moved by the debate, so thought I'd add my two cents, for what that's worth. I think first of all, that MW walked into a hotbed of coals on this site, because this is specifically a group of followers of the "method" of the Buddha. Not the general concept of enlightenment, or the mystical, spiritualistic, religiousness of enlightenment, but the hands on, self-dissolving, perception-altering, step-by-step method that the Buddha specifically recommended to his followers. That being said, I think it's a gift that MW found us, because honestly folks, when we elected to walk this path we were opening the doors to this kind of debate. I believe it will follow us everywhere we are open about it. And I think that's because people WANT to believe in the non-progressive, "just be here now" approach to enlightenment. In an age where things happen in an instant, it is almost an expectation. So either we shut up about our path, or we get ready for the debate. If there's one thing that surprised me, it was that many felt the need to explain to MW why his path is not our path. I thought that was interesting. I think there's nothing wrong with clearing up our approach, but there's no need to promote it either. If interested in our approach, I'm sure MW, who seems like a sociable fellow, will ask. I'm grateful to have found DO because it reminds me I'm not alone on this particular journey, but I don't feel this is something we can "promote" or "teach" to others. Those who are seeking will find us, as we found each other. And for those who ask, we'll be here. I commend MWs bravery to engage in debate in DO and in our membership for dealing with it head on. We learn from each other. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
 albill |
RE: Emptier-than-Thou
Mar 8 2008, 5:55 PM EST I'm unclear. Where are Michael's teachings? I have Daniel's book but what do I have of Michael's except a few simple statements and his very long e-mail to Daniel? I must admit, my eyes glazed over pretty quickly during Michael's last reply so perhaps his teachings are buried in there. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
 pratyekabuddha |
RE: Emptier-than-Thou
Mar 8 2008, 7:24 PM EST Woman_alone, you've inspired me. woman_alone said> "If there's one thing that surprised me, it was that many felt the need to explain to MW why his path is not our path. I thought that was interesting." Nice. What *I* find interesting is many postings full of willingness to use words like: debate, argument, Daniel's "battleground", and this is a good one: opinion! How the heck one can have an opinion about some aspect or path or anything about Awakening is beyond *me*! If *any* such opinion is valid I should leave, tail twixt legs! Maybe my staying here would be a good thing. I will finally get to do some good! *smile* For all the wonders of Practice-dharma, I will take your word it is doing you well, but if so, I don't quite get how y'all can be remotely arguing or willing to read opinions and such. Honest, gently as I can, with the whisper of a lover, I say, I have nothing to learn about the sublime from any such posting. What I *am* learning, that is, integrating, is the process of sharing with struggling souls, to offer what I can, if I can. That includes, to a deliberately very finite limit, engaging harsh souls to see if they are able to let go of their unvulnerability. Actual true and real heart openings lead to infinite intelligence. The limited mind, so brilliant it confuses itself with self-awareness, never leads to the heart. All practices are for a reason, remember what motivation led you to listen to a teaching. Getting a bit too far serious can really anger a person if they find someone else woke up without doing all the work they made themselves do. This is called jealousy, isn't it? We cannot define clear description, it either does or does not point to the path. There is no debate. There is no opinion in this. Nor are these simplistic statements, though they are simple. Don't dismiss the possibility you are meant to hear this. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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albill |
RE: Emptier-than-Thou
Mar 8 2008, 9:11 PM EST They didn't glaze over until I read your section in all honesty. I thought Daniel's content in those emails was entirely appropriate, both in content and tone. I couldn't figure out why you both found it offensive and thought it was something that he wouldn't show to the rest of us here. I didn't see any personal attack on you in his e-mail. Frankly, you sound a bit pedantic and arrogant and it feels, to me, that you have a chip on your shoulder or a desire to prove something. I'm not sure why. I missed your earlier interactions here so perhaps I lack context but the only behavior that I really see that is attacking in any sense is your, Michael. This is an honest answer. Do you find this valuable? |
