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mai88	weird raptures survey Apr 11 2008, 4:19 AM EDT Hello everybody, I think it might be interesting to share some experiences concerning raptures since they can be so out of the normal. To start out I´ll share mine: The only really weird rapture I had so far was that suddenly my body seemed to explode and lose it´s shape. When this wore off I had the strange feeling of being 10 meters tall (with the eyes shut). That was really funny! So I would love to hear your takes on this, have a good day, Martin Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
vjhorn	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 11 2008, 4:46 PM EDT Hi Martin, My own experience with raptures has been varied. The most common raptures are tingling sensations throughout the body that can happen anywhere, but most often occur in the head (esp the top of the head) and in the genitalia (hey, it's true). The sensations are pleasant but often have an intense quality to them, and I notice that they are most common during the dukkha nanas, though all kinds of other physical energetic phenomena seems common while cycling through the 3 characteristics as well. I'm not sure if these phenomena could be classified as rapture, though I recall hearing that there were several different kinds of rapture, so I suppose so... These experiences include intense radiating heat in the body, feelings of heat/pressure flowing upward from the spine, jolts of energy coming up the spine (which feel like electrical shocks--much less pleasant than the rapture described earlier) and all sorts of things with the bodily pressures and feelings of contortion. All fun stuff... :) Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
mai88	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 11 2008, 5:31 PM EDT Thank you for this, vjhorn! I liked your reference to the heat/energy phenomena because I find these really interesting. I know of daoist traditions that report the same things and explain it with the concept of opening closed energychannels throughout the body. I believe these concepts to be true because my kungfu-teacher is actually healing peaple in energetic ways. I´ve heard him talk about experienes with his teachers related to this that would fall in the category of the siddhis. Your and Daniel´s Buddhist Geeks episodes about siddhis really struck me because of the similarity to what my teacher was saying. This heat flowing up from the spine is a really good one because the daoists say there´s one mayor channel located there and that energy is rising from the saccrum up the spine and into the head, interesting. Oh, I remember having the notion that my body was spinning around several axis in my earlier practice but this didn´t show up again since. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
woman_alone	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 12 2008, 2:06 AM EDT Hi Martin, I've had some experience with a similar thing. No explosion for me - it was like I lifted upward or stretched. My physical body seemed to compress - like a pancake - into the floor and the resultant "me" was about eight feet tall, very light, and with a very clear sense of perception. This has happened a couple of times. Try opening your eyes next time. I found that the perception of the feeling shifted, and the sense of the body disappeared. Let me know what happens for you! Tiara Post reply Do you find this valuable?
mai88	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 12 2008, 8:42 AM EDT Hi Tiara, same goes for me. When I opened my eyes the whole thing calmed down slowly. Only the twisting and spinning of the body stayed longer. Recently this does not happen to me anymore. The only physikal raptures I have during almost every sitting is percieving the whole body as vibrations and interference patterns between sense doors. This light body clear sense of perception and the merging with the floor reminds me of the ideals in Taijiquan. The sharp perception is there called shen ming. Very interesting how different schools and traditions come across similar events. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
woman_alone	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 14 2008, 1:54 AM EDT "When I opened my eyes the whole thing calmed down slowly. Only the twisting and spinning of the body stayed longer. Recently this does not happen to me anymore. " Excellent Martin! I'm at about the same place. I suffered months of twisting and sweating. Sometimes it felt like I was being twisted like a rubber band! But then I increased the amount of practice, and I've also moved out of it. The rapture qualities are about what you describe, some days clearer, some days less so. Kind of like a full-body hum. How many hours are you sitting daily? Cheers, Tiara Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Abe_Dunkelheit Abe_Dunkelheit	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 14 2008, 10:05 AM EDT "I'm not sure if these phenomena could be classified as rapture, though I recall hearing that there were several different kinds of rapture, so I suppose so... These experiences include intense radiating heat in the body, feelings of heat/pressure flowing upward from the spine, jolts of energy coming up the spine (which feel like electrical shocks--much less pleasant than the rapture described earlier) and all sorts of things with the bodily pressures and feelings of contortion. All fun stuff... :)" Yes, I have also all of these experiences since I started meditating 2 months ago, but nothing too unpleasant. (But then I had similar experiences for a long time, before I ever practised meditation; I can see the danger here for superstitious people to read these signs as prove of spirit possessions, especially if you wake up in the night feeling as if being 'attacked' by another being, although it is only the autonomous nervous system rewiring itself, uponing up the meridians along the spine.] The crucial thing, so it seems, is how one copes with the sexual energy that is activated due to the meditative practice. With a little bit practice, it is easy to get what is called 'female orgasms', that is, one can experience sexual bliss without ejaculating, thereby (a) keeping the 'elixir' (Taoist jargon) and (b) stay celebate without unhealthy supression (!), but ideally one does not get too much involved into the sexual side of the body transformations (it is a trap!) --- A by-product of the meditative practice is a change or transformation within the nervous system, and how I understand it, it is the sexual energy (jing, or chi in Taoist jargon) that is the fuel for these changes. * Did anybody get cold feet like described here: http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_cold_leg_chi_yoga_meditation_practice_effects.htm I had these experiences of ice-cold feet (also other body parts, but less so) for about two weeks. There is also the feeling that cold air-bubbles are coming out of the legs. Probably a good read is Tao & Longevity by Nan Huai-chin and this can also be helpful: http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/index.htm Post reply 2 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
mai88	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 15 2008, 4:46 AM EDT To Tiara: how funny that you experienced similar things. I am sitting 2-4 hours a day and noting quite often during the day, how about you? To Abe Dunkelheit: I see you are into daoist practices, too. Are you doing the classic orbit-meditations or the original Daoist practice(Tai Chi Men)? My Kungfu/Taichi teacher learned from Grandmaster Lu Jin Chuan, the lineage holder of the original daoist sect, Tai chi men. Perhaps you will like his website: www.taichimethods.com Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Abe_Dunkelheit Abe_Dunkelheit	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 15 2008, 11:36 AM EDT "To Abe Dunkelheit: I see you are into daoist practices, too. Are you doing the classic orbit-meditations or the original Daoist practice(Tai Chi Men)? My Kungfu/Taichi teacher learned from Grandmaster Lu Jin Chuan, the lineage holder of the original daoist sect, Tai chi men. Perhaps you will like his website: www.taichimethods.com" Martin, actually, I am not into daoist practices per se; I am primarily interested in the descriptions of the various kung fu stages to get a better understanding (map) of the various body-mind transformations that can take place! I found much of the information on meditationexpert.com very helpful here. And yes, I am always interested in what the daoist schools have to say, so thanks for the link, I have a look! * [As a side-note: Why somebody would find my post above not valuable is beyond my comprehension. I think it is an extremely valuable post. I have had many kung fu symptoms during the last 15 years without ever knowing what was going on and meditative practice dramatically intensified them. I would have expected that this is the kind of information people are looking for (at least I was looking for it.) --- For example, if Nanavira Thera would have known this kind of stuff he would not have had to commit suicide, not knowing any other way to deal with his 'satyriasis'! The daoists are the only one to my knowledge who teach to transmute sexual energy rather than supress / repress it, and where people would finally suffer from all sorts of health problems, which are totally unnecessary! In general, the Chinese seem to be more interested in treating the body well, so that it does not become a hindrance on the path, rather than to mortify and mistreat it like many of the other traditions did!] Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Hokai	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 15 2008, 1:54 PM EDT "Abe: "In general, the Chinese seem to be more interested in treating the body well, so that it does not become a hindrance on the path, rather than to mortify and mistreat it like many of the other traditions did!"" Yes, this kind of information IS useful for those who bump into more extreme symptoms, as well as for those who are inclined to pursue qi-development in particular. However, your generalization is surely off mark. Every culture has had it's own share of extremism in terms of physical mortification and neglect, including the Chinese, whether Buddhist, Taoist, or martial/wushu practitioners. The way source information is presented these days to make it palatable and marketable is a separate issue altogether, and is commonly found in hatha yoga, zen, meditation, tantra, qigong etc. so that the impression you quote in reference to "many of the other traditions" is unwarranted, especially when considering there is no such thing as a "Chinese tradition" in any sort of unified, monolithic, generalized sense. From age to age, from lineage to lineage, the treatment of body differed dramatically, including extremely painful methods of training (the physcial pain rarely being intended, but seen as inescapable, or sometimes a useful side-show to train awareness), as well as balanced, or even gentle procedures. Anyway, it seems this is departing from the "weird rapture" hands-on emphasis of this thread, so, if you'll excuse me...:-) Post reply 5 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
cmarti	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 15 2008, 4:59 PM EDT Hokai, I think your clarification is critical to this thread. I like it here because of, not in spite of, the inclination on your part (and Daniel's) to speak up, jump in, and contribute. So there! Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
mai88	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 16 2008, 7:42 AM EDT I´m not an expert of many traditions but I know about the tradition of kungfu/taichi I come from which is, like Abe Dunkelheit sais, very much inclined towards maintaining the body healthy and comfortable. Health is even more important than martial application or strength, though I know that there are many chinese schools who don´t think that way, which relates to hokai´s post. I am strongly against traditions that torture the body to gain something cause it is not in accord with the daoist concept of wuwei. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
nathan28	RE: weird raptures survey Apr 21 2008, 12:47 PM EDT With regards to "treating the body well," you aren't going to get a mass-market paperback on Taoism suggesting that you drink the urine of eleven year old girls, or burning mugwort on your skin, even though those are probably the most interesting parts. With regards to "raptures", it's a useful category but there can be some confusion, at least with "rapture" as in a strange side-effect and "rapture" referring to the jhanic factor. I personally wish that the someone had figured out a way to attenuate some of these effects besides the advice just to keep practicing. From what I understand strong concentration or intention can intensify them. With regards to my experiences, I have had a couple of the feeling very tall or flat, floating sensations, feeling upside down, and having the spine feel like it is being twisted without it moving. These seem like one-time events rather than recurring symptoms. More recently, I have had, while sitting, lots of shaking, bobbing of the head that gets very, very rapid, altered breathing, that "electric shocks" thing, severe muscle tension, heat, uncomfortable autonomous twisting of the spine, the spine straightening up, with great muscle tension, of its own accord. These generally seem to have diminished over time though then they recur viciously; these very rarely happen while walking. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
mai88	RE: weird raptures survey Jun 29 2008, 2:00 PM EDT The past view days I´m suffering a really annoying cough that made my throat feel all sore. However, I found that the more concentrated and mindful I was of these sensations the less bodily pain they caused and now it is a very interesting object of meditation. I have read about someone who got cured of tuberculosis while doing insight practice in Sayadaw U Panditas "in this very Live". What do you think of this? Do you believe that serious illnesses can be cured by vipassana. I was sceptical until I got this cough. Love to read from you, Martin Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Hokai	RE: weird raptures survey Jun 29 2008, 3:46 PM EDT Hi, Martin. Hope your throat gets better soon. As to healing, the efficiency of the cure will depend from the specific, primary cause. Energetic practice (plus all those procedures that improve, regulate and/or balance the flow of qi indirectly) will tend to improve the condition irrespective of the primary cause. But the symptoms may return if the cause is gross physical or else some sort of psychological (usually emotional). One of practices that may indeed open the restricted flow of qi is close application of attention. Shinzen Young has done some valuable work with pain and discomfort, so please consult his approach (I'm sending you links via message). Post reply Do you find this valuable?
joebob333 joebob333	RE: weird raptures survey Jul 1 2008, 4:56 PM EDT I had some very unpleasant raptures on my first retreat. One was feeling like I just got off a 12 hour boat ride. I could feel the waves and the electromagnetic energy in them, but couldnt see them. I also could feel electromagnetic fields and different polarities at different distances and areas around my feet which interacted with the waves. For the last few days of the retreat, I had to change how I walked in meditation to keep my balance. It was quite interesting for an hour or two. Too much concentration not enough mindfullness. Feeling, Feeling, Feeling, Nausea, Nausea, Nausea, disliking, disliking, disliking, Post reply Do you find this valuable?
buffduff	RE: weird raptures survey Jul 4 2008, 1:25 AM EDT On my last Vipassana course (S.N. Goenka style), I experienced on the 8th day almost like there were 2 levels of subtle sensation on the body. The second, deeper version was vibrating 3-4x more rapidly (more like 18-20 htz that Ingram describes) and felt like an intense inward pressure, especially on the scull, as if I could feel the weight of the atmosphere keeping my body together. Painful and strange. Following this rapture I experienced a bodily bliss, deep deep equanimity, reduced sleep needs, etc. that night. Perhaps an A&P, but other evidence leads me to think probably 1st path/stream entry. I don't know if strange body experiences count officially as rapture, but I've experienced several times, starting also on my last retreat, an experience of becoming very concentrated all of a sudden, where a vibrating that is normally present at the brow slows down or stops, and something seems to change in the visual field that's difficult to describe, and suddenly the sense of the body grows and grows for 30-90 seconds, culminating in a sense of the body as being infinitely huge, with the witness/"that which is meditating" being a small part, complete with sensations on the body and occassional thoughts continuing to arise. The first time was very frightening, and I had 3 such experiences last retreat. I also had one recently lying in bed. Each time it seems to shake the sense of a real, separate self, because the self as witness is such a tiny part of the experience. Hope that is interesting to you! Whatever the experiences, weird or ordinary, the practice is the same. Note precisely what is occurring with equanimity. Best of luck in your practice. ~Duff Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
leemoore	RE: weird raptures survey Jul 4 2008, 12:55 PM EDT My experiences with rapture have been varied as well. During my first 6 day retreat there was a lot of pressure just behind the nose which would come and go. Almost like someone blowing up a balloon behind the sinus cavities. During a 14 day Mahasi style retreat this pressure spread to the whole face and would move around my entire head in an amoeba like fashion. Overall it was very pleasant. Once I started noting aggressively and it would generally pass. In one sitting I had experiences of what seemed like a palpable waves of force pushing my head back so that I was looking at the ceiling. It took physical effort to bring my head back and hold it in place. When I moved into what I suspect was the Dark Night the raptures took a very different flavor. I would get waves of vibration in my whole head making me feel disoriented and nauseous to the point of feeling mild vertigo. I’ve been on several retreats since my raptures have toned down. There has been one pleasant recurring one that I suspect is related to skimming the first Jhana without getting hard entry. I don't actively work towards Jhana practice it just comes up in Vipassana. It usually starts with subtle tingling in some part of the body. I truly know it's coming when there is a mild tingling in the genitals as Vince mentioned. Then at the end of an inbreath (always at the end) the tingling sensation propagates throughout the body in waves resembling a slow motion and very pleasant cold chill. If I focus on the pleasantness, the the tingling sensation re-propagates through the body in waves at the top of each inbreath mixing with the pleasant tingling of the leftover waves of the previous inbreath. Usually I’ll enjoy that for a few minutes, lose the ability to sustain it and go back to watching the breath. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DavidU	RE: weird raptures survey Jul 21 2008, 4:36 AM EDT Hi, I should introduce myself as this is my first post here. I'm David, from Melbourne, Australia. I've only been practicing Vipassana for 9 months. I've been to one 10-day retreat led by a western monk trained by U Pandita. Firstly, I'm really happy to have found this site. So thanks to Daniel for this work. I look forward to reading your book in the coming days. I had some very intense raptures during my first retreat. By far the most powerful of these was a wavy sensation at the base of my spine. It was a bit like nausea but much more "energetic". This wave then moved up my spine and pushed to the front of my chest, face and arms like thousands of acupuncture needles pricking from the inside. This led to convulsions of my body. This happened twice on retreat and a few times in the ensuing weeks back home. Here's the interesting part: At the time of the experience, I concluded that I was witnessing a panic attack in microscopic detail. I'd had a lengthy history of panic attacks, and although they'd subsided for a few years at this time, my teacher had indicated to me at the beginning of the retreat that I may well confront such attacks during practice. That, along with the convulsing (which is also symptomatic of panic attacks for me), convinced me that this was all there was to the experience. It was only after I'd spoken to a psychologist about my recurring "panic" that she suggested I read something about kundalini. Then I got the idea that this and other "raptures" are common occurences for meditators. I now find it extremely strange that my retreat teacher confirmed my "panic attack" diagnosis after I reported the experience in detail to him. He was otherwise very helpful to me. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
awouldbehipster	RE: weird raptures survey Jul 21 2008, 3:57 PM EDT I'm not sure if this qualifies as raptures but... I've been working on concentration lately, since I discovered it wasn't quite up to par for good vipassana practice. For the last week or so, every time I sit I experience pretty radical body quakes and chilling sensations. I've been doing my best to stay with my breath until it passes. Once the sensations pass, though, I find it much harder to stay concentrated on the breath alone, and have begun to conjure up earlier life experiences in great detail, as well as some odd hallucinogenic experiences where I am being invited to follow a seemingly imaginary figure. I haven't mentally followed any of the figures, but instead do my best to refocus on my breath. They eventually pass. The bodily sensations that precede these events are what interests me, because they always come before the visions/images. Is this normal? I'm trying not to get stuck on the images, but I don't usually have enough time to fully get passed them. This almost certainly due to the fact that I have not yet been on retreat. (I hope that it is appropriate to place this post here. If this subject has been covered elsewhere in the wiki, please redirect me to the right place.) Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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